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Transcript of Joyce & Dave Von Kleist's  Interview with Rey Kapitka & Loma Wharton on March 18, 2008

[Joyce] Welcome back to The Power Hour, this is Joyce Riley; Dave will be joining us in about five minutes and he’s got a special something for you in honor of Ray and Loma. These are the two women that have more guts and more brains than a whole bunch of Republicans and Democrats put together. I think these women are phenomenal in what they have done. They have confronted—now, remember—no—I’ll save that for a little bit later. They are just amazing when this happened. Anyway, the video is on the website at . I think it’s an hour-long video that you can look at and it is amazing.
[Joyce] We’re joined by two of the smartest, bravest, most incredible women that this country has, today. And I’m not kidding you and I’m not saying that just to be nice to them because we don’t have to because they don’t care about that kind of stuff. What they care about is doing the right thing. They found out that in Douglas County, Oregon property was being taken from innocent people under a fraudulent system called Notice of Lien versus a lien. Well, they took a stand; they went before the county commissioners and I know that they had no idea what they were going to do once they started this little domino effect in Douglas County. But I have to tell you that we are thrilled to see that they have made such a movement in that county and it is affecting a lot of other counties. Not only that…

[Dave] It’s not just in Douglas County, this is being watched and listened to all over the country.

[Joyce] That’s right. And we want to welcome, today, to the Power Hour all of the county commissioners and the attorney that are listening today from Douglas County, Oregon, all the officials from Douglas County, Oregon that are listening into the Power Hour, today live, thank you very much for joining us and remember, tell the rest of the officials in Douglas County, Oregon it will be on repeat every three hours, today, at . Why do we have them on the program, today? Why do we have Loma Whorton and Rey Kapitka? Because these two women went before a meeting last Friday and addressed the IRS issue. We’re going to be talking to them, today and we’ll save your phone calls till a little bit later because we got to find out how this meeting went. It is at ; go to liberator’s, and because Loma Wharton is running for county clerk. Ladies, welcome to The Power Hour, today.

[Loma] Good morning.

[Joyce] Wow, is all I can say. Let me start with Rey and let’s give a brief description of who you are in case there are people that not heard this program before. Rey, first of all, tell us your background quickly and why you got involved in this.

[Rey] I’m a holistic health practitioner minister and got involved in this because of my mother and Loma Wharton and I’ve always known that something was wrong but, boy, when I met Loma she sure did put all the puzzle pieces together and give me the full picture and we just went from there. Our lives haven’t been the same since.

[Joyce] Alright, let’s introduce Loma to the program. Loma, you’d probably have been working in the federal government for many years and studied tax law, etc. What is your background, Loma?

[Loma] I’m a self-employed hairdresser.

[Joyce] I love it; that is so cool when you do that. Yeah, ladies and gentlemen, these people put us to shame. If you’ve got a sheepskin up there on the wall you ought to be put to shame over what these women are doing. Holistic health practitioner and a hair dresser are turning the country upside down. Alright, Rey, tell us why this is turning the country upside down.

[Rey] Well, because people are finally realizing what’s going on. I hope that we’ve helped to educate them in that area but once people saw the first presentation back in August they realized that something was fishy. And I think a lot of people out there know that something’s not right. And after that presentation they were able to start doing their own due diligence and then a few months later we had another one and we started offering our evidence book and folks were ordering that and researching it and we started having conference calls with people all over the country in different counties and talking to them and educating them, too. It’s just been kind of a fire out of control now.

[Joyce] It certainly is and we are so glad to see that it is a fire out of control. Loma, your opinion or impression of where you are, right now. You’ve had four meetings and, by the way, they are on DVD. They’re available for $40 plus $8 shipping an handling from The Power Hour {}, all the evidence we’re talking about, here, The Tax Lien Evidence Package, the four DVD set, the Notice of Federal Lien Expose and Tax Treaty Expose package available at The Power Hour and an evidence book that went to the county officials. That’s available at The Power Hour, call 877-817-9829. Loma, where do you see the standing that you have now with the county commissioners, with the county of Douglas County, Oregon?

[Loma] Well, after Friday as in November they think they’re done with us because the two gentlemen commissioners chose not to go forward with hearing the ordinance and putting it before the people and holding open public meetings. They have pretty much, from what they think, stopped it all. But we’re not done.

[Dave] Well, are they going to allow you to present anymore information at their meetings because after watching the meeting—it is on-line, by the way, folks, if you want to watch it. It’s really interesting how they basically maneuvered themselves into not actually voting down the ordinance but they just voted down hearing about the ordinance.

[Joyce] Ok, let’s stop with what the ordinance is. Let’s go back and cover that. What is the ordinance?

[Loma] The ordinance is basically the lawful and Constitutional filing of Notice of Federal Tax Lien. That’s pretty much what the title says. And if you watch the video… We went through—they received a letter from the IRS in response to some additional information that we had sent the commissioners regarding the issue. And the IRS’ response was wonderful because we were able to use it to present to the commissioners that exactly what the IRS says is their minimum requirements in the letter was all we were asking for in the ordinance. And what they did at the meeting is they basically did a smoke screen—well, a shell game—and they just kind of switched everything around and the reason being is that they don’t want to get in the middle of this. They keep telling us, ‘go to court, go to court, go to court.’ Well, no, but we’ll do the ordinance and you can put it in front of the judge. And they’ve even decided not to do that because they, too, don’t want to go to court; they don’t want to face the IRS.

[Dave] Well, there’s the land of the free and the home of the…what’s that word?

[Loma] I don’t think you can say that on air, Dave.

[Dave] I guess not. I mean, who are they working for, are they working for the people of the county or are they working for the IRS. Seriously and I know they’re out there listening and, guys, don’t you realize that by foot dragging, paper shuffling and basically {whistling} by playing that little game you are destroying the rights of your unborn grandchildren. Don’t you guys get it? I mean I could see it; I could see how they were dancing; couldn’t see their feet but they were moving underneath that counter.

[Joyce] Alright, let’s go back to the beginning of the meeting because 99% of the people listening to this program have not seen the video yet. We know they’re going to want to see it. However, let’s start with what the meeting was called for, what the purpose of the meeting was and what happened.

[Rey] The purpose of the meeting was to get them to move forward and do a public hearing on the ordinance and I would like to correct where I misspoke and said that there were eighty-five million people that weren’t paying taxes in protest—it’s eight point five {million}. I wish it were eighty-five, then we’d really make a difference.

[Joyce] It will be eighty-five; go ahead.

[Rey] Yes it will. And so, in this presentation we were to give our information cite our cases, cite our laws and tell them exactly why we felt that it should be taken forward to the people and that the people should be able to be heard and that it should be voted on. Now, I want folks out there to understand that this isn’t dead. The only reason we’ve taken it to the county is we needed to put them on notice, legal notice, along with all of the other county officials that are involved in this too, being the sheriff’s department, the recorder, the county treasurer, etc. So, we can still take this to the people on a referendum. So, it’s not dead yet. The other thing that we are going to do since they have stopped it is we’re going to present—well, actually, what we’re going to do is in order not to acquiesce with their decision within the ten-day period we’re going to notify them that we absolutely agree with the way that they decided because neither side produced any certified exculpatory evidence from any state department. The IRS provided nothing, counsel provided nothing and we provided nothing. It was kind of like a let’s show their hands and see what they’re going to present. So now, we’re going to go back with the letter within the ten-day period and we’re going to tell them that, yes, we agree; this is the reason why we agree. We are now going to come back to you within a hundred and twenty day time period and present to you documented exculpatory evidence from the department verifying our position.

[Joyce] Ok, now let me just ask you to tell us what was it that the IRS was asked to do?

[Rey] The IRS—actually, one of the counselors which we made very clear several times in our presentation, one of the commissioners specifically wrote a letter and asked what law would we be breaking if we sign this ordinance into law and what law would you sue us under?

[Dave] Ok, let’s get the answer to that question when we get back from this break because it sounds to me like you just said, you had this meeting and the commissioners showed their hand and you showed your hand but it seems that the only person that’s not showing their hand is the IRS.

[Joyce] We have something special for all those people up there in Douglas, County, Oregon. Stay tuned; we’ll be right back in four minutes.


[Dave] Alright, welcome back, ladies and gentlemen to the Tuesday edition of The Power Hour and it’s really a simple demand, it really is, just show us the stinking law. They keep saying our arguments are frivolous; they say we don’t have to do anything. Well, look, are we a country of laws or a country of opinions? Welcome back to The Power Hour—this is Dave…

[Joyce] and Joyce and we have joining us, today, Loma Wharton and Rey Kapitka. They went before the Douglas County Commissioners meeting not even imagining that it would have the kind of impact that it’s had. What they did was they said, ‘we think you are taking people’s properties without the right to do that; we think that you are doing this illegally; we think it is fraud.’ Well, that is developed into a number of hearings that have taken place. If it wasn’t fraud Douglas County probably would have said, ‘we can prove it’s not fraud and here we go and enough of them.’ But they kept coming back and they keep doing their homework. Loma Wharton and Rey Kaptika join us today from Douglas County, Oregon, Roseburg, Oregon to tell us about this latest meeting. Let me just ask you simply for the people that have not heard this, you went before with an ordinance, now what was the request for this ordinance or what did the ordinance actually say?

[Rey] Well, the ordinance actually spells out the legal, lawful and Constitutional procedures that the IRS must follow in order to do a—well, basically the turning of a Notice of Federal Tax Lien into an actual lien and/or levy. And all of the information in the ordinance comes directly from federal law and from the IRS Code Book, itself, or from the IRS’ Special Handbook for Special Agents and Criminal Investigators. One of the arguments that the county has continued to use is the supremacy clause and stating that federal law trumps state and local law. And we kept reiterating nothing in the ordinance has anything to do with that. We are in compliance with the Supremacy Clause and they continue to not hear that.

[Joyce] Alright, now, as a result of all of this Loma Wharton is now running for county clerk. Now, this is a position we want to help her with and we want you to go to because we want her to be in that position. Can you imagine what she can do once she gets in a position where she has some authority to do the right thing. Loma, how is your campaign progressing? Tell us that, real quickly.

[Loma] Well, first off, Joyce, it’s going very well and I would like to thank the Power Hour listeners that have sent in donations. We’ve had donations from twenty-five dollars to one dollar and those are very, very important. I don’t remember where they all came from but I would…the listeners. The support, here, is really—well, I’ve been to two forums already and we’re starting to have private parties with people getting together in group where I can go and talk to them, one on one. Finances for this is a big issue with us because it is grass roots. I don’t have a lot of support and something that’s happened here, another person has entered into the race which was some misinformation that I got from the clerk’s office. I was told that I had to file in January when in actuality I could have waited and filed the first part of March which is also the state regulation. So another gentleman has entered the race so now we have a runoff for the primaries. So, getting signs and getting them out is critical and we’re going to be starting to pound the pavement, here, pretty soon. We do have our tri-folds out but the response has been overwhelming.

[Joyce] Now, we need people in that area to help you out. Go to if you’re in the Roseburg, Oregon area, anywhere around there, help them out. Her website is just absolutely beautiful and you can donate there at the website. Now, we need more money donated for Loma. We need more support for her because this is a woman, if anybody deserves a position she deserves this position.

[Dave] No kidding.

[Joyce] Like Ron Paul. And this gives new meaning to the, guys, get the lace off your panties—I mean, new meaning to that, gentlemen, new meaning to that. Donate, guys, if you can’t support and be there then donate, please. We’re going to be right back after this three-minute break and we’re going to find out what happened with the request to the IRS. We’ll find out what their response was after this three-minute break. Stay tuned.


[Joyce] Loma, we do want to support you in running for clerk, . Support her; go to the website there. Alright, let’s go back to the subject of the meeting that was being held. Then you asked them to adopt a resolution or an ordinance regarding the IRS. Didn’t you say that the IRS was asked a question by one of the county commissioners, is that correct?

[Rey] Yes.

[Joyce] Ok, and that question was?

[Rey] Marilyn Kittelman asked them to tell her under what law specifically would they sue the county should they pass this ordinance. And she asked them to either e-mail the answer or fax the answer. They didn’t respond so she had her secretary call and, Donna, her secretary, was told that they could not fax it or e-mail it. And she said, ‘well, just tell me, then.’ And they said, ‘well, we can’t, because we’d be walking on eggshells.

[Dave] Whoa, I remember hearing that last night; I got to jump in, here. Wait a second, why would they even make such a statement unless…

[Joyce] Why are they walking on eggshells?

[Dave] Really, this craziness.

[Joyce] We’re the ones that have to go before the audits.

[Dave] Really, you can’t be a little bit pregnant or mostly pregnant, either there’s a law or there isn’t and we have every right to demand that they ‘show me the law’ just simply show me the law. If you’re going to enforce the law and these guys are running with the tails between their legs up at Douglas County, because they’re so afraid the IRS going to come after them and sue them and litigate. Well, wait a second, how can they litigate if there’s no law?

[Rey] Right.

[Dave] This is so stupid; come on, guys, land of the free, home of the…. I mean…

[Joyce] Alright, let’s go back to this. So the IRS said, ‘we’re walking on eggshells.’?

[Rey] Yes.

[Joyce] And what was the response of the county commissioners at that point?

[Rey] Nothing, I mean, other than for Marilyn Kittelman. She found it quite unusual that that would be the answer and that’s why she felt very strongly about bringing it forward to the public and at least doing a public hearing with this so that they had their input.

[Loma] For those of you out there who have watched every single one of our DVDs the one commissioner that remained silent up to Friday’s meeting was Joe Lawrence. He hardly says anything until Friday’s meeting. Now, let me tell you something, here, I have been doing my own education, my own research for twelve years. There’s no way that that man knew what he said in the side of seven months that everything that Joe Lawrence said and read during that whole meeting was given to him by the attorneys. You cannot learn that much that fast.

[Joyce] Ok, so what are you implying here?

[Loma] Well, they’d left it up to the attorneys. And by leaving it up to the attorneys and denying the people this hearing Joe Lawrence and Doug Robertson are guilty of a misprision of felony. We reported the crime to them; they’re obligated to do something. They had the opportunity to take the ordinance to a hearing, adopt it, let a court of competent jurisdiction invalidate it and give us the court’s findings and facts and conclusions of law. That’s what the ordinance asked for.

[Dave] It was John F. Kennedy that said, when you make peaceful change impossible you make violent revolution inevitable. And I can’t help but think about the commissioners in not just Douglas County but around the country have basically by following this particular methodology are taking the law into their own hands. They’re enforcing rules that don’t exist, laws that don’t exist based on color of law which is not law; it’s just what they think is law and what the attorneys tell them rather than doing their own research and finding out that the arguments that you’re making are indeed valid because there are thousands and thousands of attorneys across this country. There are former IRS agents, I mean, at the Freedom Law School. Peymon Montehade, Joe Banister, John Turner, Sherry Jackson, all these people, have done the homework, they’ve done the research and the bottom line, here is that when you have commissioners in counties across this country that take the law into their own hands, I mean, God forbid people should start taking the law into their own hands. They wouldn’t like that too much.

[Rey] That’s right.

[Loma] That’s one of the reasons why I’m running for office. We have got to start putting people in office that are no longer afraid, that are willing to stand up and tell the truth and do the right thing.

[Joyce] Yes, absolutely. Now, you have got more behind you in support than you really know and I want it to be even more than it is now. So, please, ladies and gentlemen, go to . If there’s anybody who we want to get into a position to make a difference it’s Loma Wharton and please donate and help her because she’s doing all of this on her own. She’s a hairdresser in real life and she’s out there doing this because she knows it is the right thing to do. They’re taking a lot of risks; they’re putting themselves in the firing line is where they’re going. Now, let me open up the phone lines because I know that you’re chomping at the bit to ask questions of Rey Kapitka and Loma Wharton—800-259-9231. Now, you will see them at the website. Go to the website and click on the hearing that was held. It’s going to take some time to watch that because you’re going to want to see what actually took place. Now, you said that the two gentlemen. Well, again, before I open up the phone lines, 800-259-9231, you said Joe Lawrence and what’s the other gentleman’s name?

[Rey] Doug Robertson.

[Joyce] Doug Robertson have not been saying a whole lot on this subject, is that correct?

[Rey] Correct.

[Joyce] And, so, now what about the lady, Ms. Kittelman? Now, we had her on the Power Hour not too long ago. She seems like a very smart lady with a lot of support behind her. She doesn’t seem like she is kowtowing to whatever agenda there is. She seems to be thinking outside of the cage as it were. What was her status at this hearing?

[Rey] Well, Marilyn has got more honor and integrity than the two of them put together, that’s for sure. And what she did at the end of the meeting—did a motion to take this to the National Association of Counties and the reason being is that at the last meeting of their state association of counties there was a lot of talk between commissioners and county treasurers regarding this issue and their liability in it and they want out. They don’t want to be the collection center for the IRS anymore. And there’s currently a Senate bill, 2394, and a companion bill to that is 1124 that’s in front of the Senate that’s a little limited in scope. It has to deal with contractors who contract with the government. And they want to do a centralized lien processing that the IRS has. They put it back in the IRS’ lap. All of the public can go to it and view it. The government officials can go to it to view it so that when they are opening projects up for bids they can check and see if there’s any liens against these corporations. Well, what we want to do is we want to expand on that bill, include all IRS liens, put it back into the lap of the IRS, take it completely out of the county’s hands where they’re not doing any more of the collection process for the IRS. So we were approached by Nina Cook after the meeting and asked if we would assist her in writing a resolution that they could take to the association of counties and get it put onto their national platform and make this an issue with these two bills that are currently in front of Congress, right now, to expand on them and incorporate all IRS tax liens. And that would be phenomenal because without that recorder’s stamp it forces the IRS back into following their rules, regulations and the federal laws in doing these federal notice of tax liens and tax liens.

[Loma] One thing you have to remember, here, Joyce, is not only does the sheriff and the recorder take on a personal liability for this fraud, the entire county also takes on that liability because that’s where the county government’s going to go to pay any debt from any cases that are brought against any of these officials. So it’s a huge liability for the county.

[Rey] If we could ever find an attorney who is willing to take on a class action suit regarding these filings of Notice of Federal Tax Liens it could bankrupt every county in the nation.

[Joyce] Oh, my goodness.

[Dave] Well, there are a couple of points that need to be made. First of all, I don’t know why people avoid it but the bottom line is the United States Constitution, Section 8, paragraph 17 states clearly the Congress shall have the power to exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever over such district not exceeding ten miles square. Federal law is constantly referred to and deferred to I noticed by the Douglas County commissioners when they gave their presentation but federal law does not apply to the states. The states have their own constitution, their own governor, their own Senators, their own Congressmen, their own borders and people have to understand that if we allow federal law to supercede state law then there’s no need for states, there’s no need for commissioners; they’re all out of a job and that’s the first part. The other part, a lot of folks don’t realize, is that the IRS attorneys have even admitted in courts of law that the IRS, itself, is not part of the government. So when they defer to IRS Code or whatever they’re deferring to a private organization that really doesn’t have any jurisdiction when it comes right down to it.

[Rey] Correct.

[Loma] Nina Cook called it a different kind of judgment creditor—show me the bill.

[Joyce] Ok, very good; let’s go to Jeff in Reno. Jeff, you’re on the air with Rey and Loma, go ahead, please.

[Jeff] Yeah, I just wanted to make a couple of comments but first I wanted to understand, if I heard it correctly, was it someone that said that the federal law enforcement or the government actually has… Is that what I heard that federal law enforcement or the government actually has authority over local government; did I hear that correctly?

[Joyce] Rey or Loma, do you want to respond to that?

[Rey] Well, what we’re saying is that the argument from the special attorney that the county has hired is that the supremacy clause is the whole issue here. And they say that federal law trumps state and local law. Well, only to the point to where our US Congress has the authority to pass laws that are compliant with the Constitution. So, this gets really deep as far as that goes.

[Loma] And there’s another single issue that Nina made very clear in the September 7th meeting. The IRS relies on the supremacy clause, federal law trumping, and the Fourteenth Amendment. Now, for years we’ve all been taught that we are Fourteenth Amendment citizens, that we are obligated to pay the debt. So when you take the Fourteenth Amendment and the Thirteenth Amendment, the Fourteenth Amendment is very critical and that’s what people need to understand. They need to do their own due diligence to see how you’re obligated and liable for.

[Joyce] Ok, let me go to Buzz in Texas—thank you very much. Buzz in Texas, you’re on the air; go ahead, please with Rey and Loma.

[Buzz] I have two quick questions. One, the economic stabilization checks that are coming out. Is it possible those are going to be classed by the IRS as earned income, responsible for putting that on your 08 tax returns and if they say, ‘yes, that is earned income,’ or ‘it’s taxable income,’ will there be any interest penalties for the year that you had in your possession?

[Joyce] Well, they’re not tax experts and that’s really not the issue. Ladies, do you want to address that issue?

[Rey] We have no idea.

[Joyce] Ok, that’s not in their purview, but good comments, though, Buzz—very good comments.

[Buzz] It’s just a question I had because, hey, hypothetically if it were classed as earned income then, wow, what’s going to happen on the 08 tax returns?

[Dave] I want to point out to the Douglas County commissioners and all the others that if you want to check out Diversified Metal Products, which is the plaintiff, versus T-Bow Company Trust you will find on item 4 it states that not the Internal Revenue Service is a agency of the United States government but admits that the United States of America would be a proper party to the action.


[Dave] Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to the Tuesday edition of The Power Hour; this is Dave…

[Joyce] …and Joyce. And that is on the album, Music to Live For, and you got to get it, you got to have it, it’s from The Power Hour. That’s about the only place to get it. Call 877-817-9829 and you get a free cassette of Dave’s first album, Will Someone Listen. You can go to . Before we went to the break Dave was explaining about the IRS being a governmental agency or not a governmental agency. Dave, go ahead and quote that real quickly.

[Dave] Yeah, and I’m sorry I stepped on you a little going to that break, there. I wanted to get that in there but this is a case of a company, Diversified Metal Products v. T-Bow Company Trust, Internal Revenue Service, and a gentlemen by the name of Steve Morgan; this is in the State of Idaho. And the statement, here, reads and I quote: The United States of America through undersigned counsel hereby responds to the numbered paragraphs of the plaintiff’s complaint as follows—and it goes, 1, 2, 3, and then paragraph 4. Statement denies that the Internal Revenue Service is an agency of the United States government but admits that the United States of America would be a proper party to the action, period. Now…

[Joyce] It denies that the Internal Revenue Service is an agency of the US government.

[Dave] Exactly. So if any county commissions or any county, any elected officials, are kowtowing to the IRS then they are doing the will of a private organization that has no jurisdiction or bearing whatsoever.

[Joyce] Ok, let me go back to Buzz in Texas. Buzz, go ahead, please. Buzz is gone. Frank in Louisiana, go ahead, Frank.

[Frank] Yes, the IRS in its own legal reference guide states that a notice of levy is not enough to seize any property. And the Supreme Court has stated you must have a court order in order to seize property. So if you’re acting in the executive branch of government which the IRS is and you’re seizing property you’re violating separation of powers. That’s an extremely powerful violation. The Supreme Court said in the Soval v. Illinois case that that’s called a criminal trespass.

[Joyce] Ok. Thank you very much for that information, Frank. You want to respond to that, Rey or Loma, we’ve got a bunch of phone calls; do you want to respond to that?

[Loma] Well, if watch the DVD on Friday, county counsel read all cases that dealt with lower court cases but the presentation that we made, I might add, that we gave them two weeks before so they would know exactly what we were talking about, we put Supreme Court rulings in there and what the Supreme Court has said. But the Supreme Court is frivolous and one thing people have to understand, here; this current government is ruling under administrative rules. They are not following the Constitution…

[Joyce] Let me move on real quickly. I apologize. Bob in Saint Louis, final caller to The Power Hour with Rey and Loma, go ahead, please.

[Bob] How do you spell your name to get your website; do you have a phone number? And I got one more question.

[Joyce] Ok, give out the website, ladies, please.

[Rey] , .

[Joyce] If you go to the website and click on it, it’ll be on there today and you can hear this program every three hours for the rest of this day {March 17, 2008} and part of tomorrow. Thank you so much for joining us on The Power Hour. You’re heroines if we’ve ever seen them—thank you so very much.

[Rey & Loma] Thank you, guys.

[Joyce] We support you and, ladies and gentlemen, support Rey and Loma. Ladies, I cannot say enough for you. Wow, what heroes.

[Dave] Absolutely; you girls rule. Alright, well maybe if Loma gets elected she will in the County Commissioners Office—there we go.

[Joyce] Douglas County, stay tuned.



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