So, let’s start with the IRS issue because—and I want to focus on this building also that happened in Austin. We’re not for that, we don’t promote that, that’s not a good thing. His poor family is tragically involved in a situation that they’ll probably never be able to come to any understanding about, at all but there are people that probably could be driven to that kind of thing, aren’t there?

[Ralph]              Well, it’s extremely frustrating, especially if you have an engineering type mind, a logical mind, to understand the criminality and the fraud when you’re trying to work something out. They won’t tell you the truth. Many people are out saying there is no law about the IRS and I’m going to address that. And let me preface all this, first of all. I do not encourage to file. I do not encourage not to file. I do not file. I would encourage those that do not file get knowledge. And for the people that come back and say, ‘well, give unto Caesar that’s Caesar’s,’ I would say to you, my foundation, although I don’t…is the Ten Commandments. And I cannot knowingly and intentionally sign a document that I know is an absolute fraud therefore ‘give unto Caesar’ is not going to work for me.

[Joyce]                            And we’re going to talk about why you say that document is a fraud. So, again, ladies and gentlemen, if you owe, that means if you come under the requirements or the rules, regulations, codes and laws and you feel you owe then you should pay. Now, what we’re talking about here is not breaking any “laws”. We’re going to be discussing what those laws are. Alright, let’s start with the 101 of the basics of this subject of filing income tax. What is the IRS? Who are they?

[Ralph]              Well, they’re an agency and we have to go back, basically, to the Civil War to get a little bit of history to start to understand that there are two words that people do not understand is agency and regulations and to put that into perspective before I give the history of it, Congress passes laws. And we go to the Statutes at Large to look at laws that have been passed. Now, Congress has a certain procedure. They’re supposed to read the bills. Of course, they don’t do that anymore. But, at least, they have to vote on them s they have to pass by a majority, they have to be signed by the president or vetoed and then it’s overridden and most people are familiar with that concept. So if I wanted to see where a law is I would go to the books called Statutes at Large and then I could rely upon that Congress has passed it by a majority and the President has signed it. Now, what about agencies and regulations? The health care bill had the word, regulation, in it and on both sides over 200 times. And it’s always done by agencies. So, where do we find and how do we be concerned when an agency does. Well, FDR—let me back up to the very first agency and the reasoning behind this because after the Civil War they were overthrowing the government and the very first agency was the Interstate Commerce Commission in 1885 and the selling point of that was that they are going to have these agencies that are appointed by and with—the president nominates—by and with the consent of Congress and then they’re going to be politically free. They’re going to live in utopia and they’re going to be outside the government because the president when they used to prior to the Civil War and after the Civil War until they got this started, any time there was a change in a president there were many hundreds or sometimes many thousands of people would get replaced because when the President would come in he’d put in the people that were of his belief system and the people that got him elected. So this was supposed to stop all that. That was the good part of it. It came along to World War I and the agencies started to increase. And then when Franklin Delano Roosevelt got into power these agencies—it was like unleashing like in Egypt, like all of these things that happened to the people over in Egypt, the Israelites. I mean, these agencies just popped up everywhere. So, the question became is what is this agency and where do we find it? Well, Franklin Delano Roosevelt was quite aware of the fact that these agencies were out of control. So, in 1937 he had a presidential questions committee. Administrative management is a 400-page document and they researched out agencies, what they are, how are they going to control them? And what they did and this is right out of the Congressional Record of the Administrative Procedures Act in 1946. As a result of this study they created a fourth branch of government—technically, a headless fourth branch of government. That’s right in the documents, that Franklin Delano Roosevelt said, was convinced, it would be a great document of permanent importance. Now, this was something that was done by the government. So they created a fourth branch of government. This fourth branch of government sits outside our Constitutional Republic. We are taught and familiar with and think that the Congress or legislature makes laws. We are taught and think that the executive enacts those laws, puts them into effect and it should be judiciary then is a place where we go get things adjudicated or get them enforced to make us either go to jail or abide by them or get the resolution to an issue. They created this fourth branch, this headless 4^th branch of government.

[Joyce]                            Go to his website, www.jusbelli.com . This man is doing the research. Regardless of whether you agree with what he says or not he can prove it and that’s what it’s all about. And I think as we get into this a little bit later you’re going to be absolutely shocked by what he has to say. Ralph, let’s go back to the increase in the agencies, talking about IRS is an agency. Do you know what the legal definition of an agency is?

[Ralph]              It is in the reality of the administrative state, that’s the fourth branch, the headless fourth branch of government. You can think of them as the mercenaries hired armed and unarmed of Congress. And in right in the Congressional Act they wanted to be able to administer and overthrow our government and if that’s what they say right in this 1946 Congressional Record they wanted to be able to administer, in other words, control what’s going on instead of just making the law and then having the executive execute it and having the judiciary because in the administrative state there is no constitutional republic—it’s all gone—there’s been a complete coup d’etat. So these agencies being mercenaries working for Congress armed and unarmed where we find and see what they’re up to is not in the Statutes at Large. You can’t beat them…  We’re playing checkers and they’re playing chess. We aren’t even on the same place. So, where these agencies live and where they are mandated to tell us what they’re up to is in the Federal Register. And the Federal Register is equivalent to a legal notice in a newspaper that you see and in newspapers where you put it in. And there is a strict procedure when they publish regulations and there’s only one of the regulations that can reach back in to the constitutional republic and grab you and me and that, today, is in 5 USC 553, (b), (c), and (d). Now, what does that mean? That is the equivalent to Congress taking a vote and the president saying yea or nay. That is what that process is. And the only place that is disposed is in the Federal Register in the rule-making…  And what that says in those is they have to give us notice by publishing our proposed rule in the Federal Register. They have to wait at least thirty days to allow us to have an input and comment…  Now, they have to say in the proposed rules that they’re going to do that. The minimum after thirty days, then they come back with what’s called the final rule and they have to address all of the comments the public put in and once that’s done they have to wait thirty days before it’s enacted so that we, then, can either take them to court or we can file more comments. And, of course, if we file comments they’re just going to run over it. I mean, they’re not going to listen to us. But, at least, that is the rule-making process for what’s called agencies and the word is called substantive regulations and they have the force and effect of law the same as the statute passed by Congress and that is the key.

[Joyce]                            So you’re saying that 5 USC, Section 553, (b), (c), (e) is the substantive regs for how to pass the regulations?

[Ralph]              That is the mandated procedure that they must follow. They have to follow that and they have to say in the Federal Register they’re in compliance with it and the issue is they have to give us notice and they have to allow thirty days. They say, ‘please comment on it,’ and then they come back and republish it and they’re going to have to say, ‘we are addressing all your comments,’ and then they have to wait thirty days before it becomes effective. That’s the process.

[Joyce]                            Ok, how does that relate to the IRS?

[Ralph]              IRS doesn’t ever do it—ever.

[Joyce]                            Ok, but you’re saying every agency is under that guideline there?

[Ralph]              Every agency. Now, the only ones that are exempted is anything that is a benefit, social security, child custody…

[Joyce]                            And what else?

[Ralph]              Anything like the Federal Reserve doesn’t do it. FEMA doesn’t do it because, see, this is what’s so astounding is that the Federal Reserve absolutely operates with no oversight—zero. Now, what I found out also is with the administrative procedures act—just to back up a little bit—and I talked to Amy Bunk[sp?], she’s the head attorney for the Federal Register and she confirmed this, the administrative procedures act whether these agencies comply with the mandatory procedure that is equivalent to Congress voting and the President saying yea or nay in 5 USC 553, (b), (c), and (d) there is no oversight. These agencies are self-policing. Well, do you think that’s really going to work? There’s nobody in charge and she said, ‘well, that’s up to you to understand how their process works and to go to court’ and I said, ‘how would I would I know how to do all this. I said, ‘it’s not taught.’ She said, ‘well, then we do have a problem there.’ And I talked to the chief counsel for the IRS. It took me a long time but I finally found one, this high-up that would talk to me, and he said, ‘yeah, we just do interpretive regs; we don’t do substantive regs.’ Really?

[Joyce]                            Ok, what are substantive regs?

[Ralph]              Substantive regs have the same force and effect of law as a statute or a law passed by Congress. They create an obligation or a duty upon us. So, it’s equivalent to Congress voting on a law and the president signing it. That’s what a substantive reg is in the administrative state.

[Joyce]                            So, they simply interpret it which you can have every judge in a different venue in this country interpreting it in a different way.

[Ralph]              The regulations that they promulgate in the Federal Register are interpretive regs and in some attorney’s opinion you can’t be prosecuted and they have no force and effect of law—just some attorney’s opinion. You get another attorney, you get another opinion and we are being ruled because we do not understand that these regulations have a very strict procedure but they don’t tell us. How would we know? Have you ever heard this before?

[Joyce]                            No, we haven’t. And how would we even go forward now that we do know it? What difference is that going to make to us in our own understanding of the IRS Code?

[Ralph]              Well, that’s a good question and I’m working on the final throes of that today and there are two acts of Congress that’s required to kill the IRS and I don’t mean agents—I mean agencies. This works on all agencies without exception and you cannot beat them with Code. People keep trying to beat them in the Code but that’s not the thing. It’s an illusion. Everything is an agency today. Tell me something that’s not an agency. Law enforcement is, child enforcement is, EPA, they’re all agencies—every blithering last one of them. Let me give you an overview, first of all, how the whole—if you just back up and give just an overview of how this thing works. Congress hires an agency, a mercenary, armed and not armed. And they say, ‘go promulgate regulations.’ Now, if it’s going to be substantive Congress has to say we authorize you to do something to promulgate regulations and they do that. It’s just like….over four hundred times in the IRS. So, anyway, Congress says, ‘go promulgate the published regulations in the Federal Register.’ So, the agency goes in, it makes a proposed rule, it comes back, there’s a…  Those regulations, then go over to Congress and they sit there for sixty days and if Congress doesn’t do anything then they’re written into concrete. Now, how can we see this in action? Katrina, the hurricane, nothing’s working well and the guy that’s supposedly in charge of this, he is running under regulations. Now, Congress just whoops and hollers and they make all kinds of noise but what happens is they don’t have any control. The president doesn’t have any control over the agencies, what they’re doing down there except in absolute extreme emergency. So he just does what he wants. And then, what happens is Katrina gets over and Congress has a Congressional hearing and we’re sitting on the sideline and he’s said, ‘oh, boy, they’re beating up on them guys.’ Nothing ever happens because Congress can’t do anything to them. They cannot change those regulations unless they pass another law and go through the process again. Does that sound familiar?

[Joyce]                            That’s right and when did you ever hear of a Congressional hearing that actually something happened as a result of it?

[Ralph]              Because they can’t. Their hands are tied. They can’t do anything. It’s all for us to sit on the sidelines, kind of like a football game, and we root but we never see the goal—nobody ever wins.

[Joyce]                            How true—so true.

[Ralph]              And that’s the game. That’s the agency game, right there in a nutshell.

[Joyce]                            So that’s the basis of all of the reasons why the IRS is not an organization to which we have obedience to?

[Ralph]              That’s right, there is because only if an agency does that, follows that procedure in 553 (b), (c), and (d) which is like Congress voting and the President saying yea or nay. Unless they do that and the only place you see it’s in the Federal Register and I’m sure you got up this morning and checked the Federal Register, didn’t you, before you came on the air?

[Joyce]                            Every day.

[Ralph]              You bet.

[Joyce]                            No, sarcastically, I respond. I mean, who can even understand what it says once you would get into it. Who even has it?

[Ralph]              It’s real simple and then what I discovered which is what I’m working on now is, guess what, in 1953 the IRS published all the regulations for the 1954 Code, all of it. And you know what they said at the end of 429 pages? We ain’t doing that stinking APA. So then they published the 1954 IRS Code and in 1954 they published in the Federal Register another regulation that said, ‘we ain’t doing that stinking APA because it would delay things and it’s not the best public interest.

[Joyce]                            And you’re talking about 5 USC, the section that you quoted earlier being the APA Code that the IRS said in 1954, not doing it. We’re done.

[Ralph]              Right. And back in 1954, they didn’t codify it until 1966 but back then it was 4(a) and 4(c) which is the same thing today as 5 USC 553 (b), (c), and (d).

[Joyce]                            So they just quit adhering to their own regulations?

[Ralph]              Why would anybody make them do it—nobody knew how it worked. So then, in 1960—this is the killer—they republished all of the Part 1. Now, Part 1 is, if you looked at regulations it’ll say 26 CFR which is Code of Federal Regulations, that’s a book kind of like the Statutes at Large and if it starts with a ‘1’ it’s called a Part 1. Part 1 are for individual income tax. So it’ll say 26 CFR and it’ll say one point something such as 1.6011, 1.6012. Well, in 1960 they republished it all and I go in there and I look. I mean, there’s literally hundreds of pages and I said, but they don’t say anything about the APA. Well, finally in talking to Amy Bunk and I’m going to the Anchorage Law Library, one month later they publish those in November and one month later in December of 1960 they said, ‘oh, by the way, why don’t you go back to the 1954 Federal Register that said, ‘we ain’t doing that stinking APA. So, all of the part 1 individual income tax regulations published in 1960 are all interpretive—the whole bunch—everything.

[Joyce]                            Wow, that is incredible. That, I’ve not heard of before.

[Ralph]              And the next problem that we run into because this is a killer, 6011 and 6012 is for doing returns. They’re all interpretive. There is no obligation or duty to file an income tax return.

[Joyce]                            Ok, how do you cite that with 6011, what do you mean?

[Ralph]              It would be 26 USC, Section 6011 which says in there, there’s got be regulations promulgated by the Secretary and that’s the next prong that we need to get to so I go look and see. Ok, well, what regulations are there under that Code section? There’s two more things that we have to be able to conclusively prove. This is like you and I or a child can look at cat or dog then they can make the determination is it’s a cat of a dog probably by the age of eight.  …almost 100%--right? Try to write a legal brief to describe a cat or a dog—now, that’s reality. Now, to take this one step farther. You got a fictional thing that exists out there—just somebody made it up. How do I trap that thing? That’s what people have been struggling with. How do I trap something that somebody by attorneys to screw us? And that’s what I’ve finally done so the 5 USC 553, (b), (c) and (d) is what I call prong three—that’s the final thing. The first thing that we have to do is have to establish almost never that the IRS—because if you’ve ever gotten any notices from the IRS you don’t see regulations—almost never. So, we have to somehow move the IRS out of the world where we can’t beat them in the Code and get them where we can see what they’re doing into the Federal Register, in the Code of Federal Regulations. That requires a Federal Register Act because it said anything required by act of Congress has got to be published in the Federal Register. That’s what people have been missing, that’s the first prong. I got to get the IRS and go into the lair of this dragon, this thing, and it lives in the Federal Register. I got to get it out of the Code. All agencies, you can’t beat them with Code. It’s impossible because that isn’t where they tell you what’s going on.

[Joyce]                            Ok, so you can’t beat them on the Code, not that we would want to beat them—that’s not the issue. But the issue is…

[Ralph]              Expose them.

[Joyce]                            Right, but the issue is, though, that they are not promulgating regulations according to their own Code.

[Ralph]              Right. But the problem is, they don’t want to talk about regulations. They say, ‘oh, we’ve got Code sections. If you get any of these notices of tax liens and levies, that’s all Code stuff. Where’s the regulation? Didn’t he say, ‘wait a minute here’ because we have a misconception that agencies are government. They are not. All they are is hired mercenaries, no different, slightly different than Blackwater—that’s all they are. So you have to use the Federal Register Act as by act of Congress you got to publish in the Federal Register, it says that if it has general applicability or legal effect which means if it creates a obligation or a duty Congress says, get in the Federal Register, folks. Well, we have to be able to know how to take a Code Section like 6011 which is filing an income tax return or 6012 which is 26 USC 6012 on return where it says the Secretary’s got to promulgate regulations. So we link that fact to the Federal Register Act and we say to the IRS, ‘hey, this an act of Congress. They ordered you to get into the Federal Register now. Get in the Federal Register and tell me what you’re doing.’ Well, lo and behold, I go into the Federal Register like under 6012 was the one they love to use. There’s no regulations promulgated that are listed and now that’s the second problem. The first one is we have to prove and move them in where we can slay them and expose them. Let’s turn that around, expose them and then slay them and for what they really are. It’s kind of like a magic trick. You can sit back of the thing and see the rabbit come out of the hat but I want to get up on the stage and I want to look in the hat and see where that rabbit’s coming from because it’s just an illusion, it’s all deception. All of these federal agencies are all deceptions.

[Joyce]                            Ok, but some poor guy, right now, is having a tax lien filed against him and they’re wanting to take his property and he says, ‘excuse me, but you didn’t list your codes in the Federal Register, your regulations in the Federal Register therefore you have no jurisdiction over me? I mean, someone’s going to actually say that?

[Ralph]              That’s one of the things that I’m working on and how to deal with it but what they did with the Internal Revenue Service to protect…   These are acts of treason. They really are because they’re stealing people’s property and there is no law. But you have to know how to structure it. And what Congress did to protect this entity…

[Joyce]                            The IRS is an agency.

[Ralph]              Yes.

[Joyce]                            They did not adhere to the regulations they are supposed to adhere to.

[Ralph]              The IRS is an agency. Again, they operate, if you think of it as administrative legislative process it’s like the congressional process. There is a process that they have to do that’s mandated by Congress to pass something that has the force and effect of law that creates an obligation or duty, just like what Congress would pass. They have to, number one, the whole thing that we have to do to defeat these guys or to expose them is we have to, number one, get them out of the Code section because we can’t beat them in the Codes because that’s not where they live. That’s where Congress is hiring them and say, ‘hey, go do regulations.’ So, the Federal Register Act, number one, says if it’s of general applicability or legal effect required by Congress you’ve got to publish a regulation in the Federal Register. So, that’s the first thing. You have to say, ‘ok, the Federal Register Act says you have to publish in the Federal Register if it’s general applicability legal effect and that means creates an obligation or a duty. Ok, that’s the first thing that we have to…   That’s been a major problem is how to get these agencies into the Federal Register because they don’t want to go there because they know if they go there we will see the magic trick. It’s like pulling the little hat open and we’re going to say, ‘oh, my God, look at what they’re doing here—this is not real.’ Now, the second thing that I learned—and this was with talking to Amy Bunk, the head attorney for the Federal Register, and I confirmed all these things, and in the Federal Register Act—they delegated to implement the Federal Register Act that they the Federal Register Committee would promulgate regulations. So, where could I go and absolutely, positively know that if Congress says you got to publish in the Federal Register, where is this list, where does it exist? Well, lo and behold it’s in the publications of the Code of Federal Regulations behind the Table of Contents. The agency is responsible itself to tell us behind the Table of Contents, that’s the only place they have to tell us, did we promulgate any regulations that Congress directed us to do? That’s the only place you can—the parallel table of authorities and all this, it’s all nonsense, it’s all an illusion—just forget it. You can’t use it. So, number one, now, I’ve got the Federal Register Act saying you got to do regulations. You got to go into the Code Sections and you’ll find it where it says you got to promulgate regulations by the Secretary or whatever. And, number two, then I go behind the Table of Contents and I look and I see what regulations have you promulgated. So, now, I can say, ‘oh, ok, these are the regulations.’ Well, in this area, this prong two, at the very bottom is where the Amy Bunk, this head attorney for the Federal Register, said, ‘well, we show you for your research the source of these regulations…’ 

Let’s recap here. First of all, we have to use the Federal Register Act to get them from the Code Sections into the Federal Register and that’s by Act of Congress. So you go into the specific Code section and find the ones that say there’s got to be regulations promulgated. And you can’t have a substantive regulation unless Congress said, ‘hey, agency, go promulgate regulations.’ Prong number two, where do I see if they’ve done it? You have to look behind the Table of Contents. That is where all agencies—it’ll tell you what they’ve done. That’s the only place you’ll see like for returns, 6011 and 6012, you will see if they promulgated any regulations. Ok. And the other thing that is really important, especially with the IRS is at the bottom—this is the killer—is they tell you at the bottom the source—like if they republished the whole part or a whole section—they tell you where to go and this is where I discovered that all of the republished regulations of 1960 of the individual income tax are all interpretive. They have no force and effect of law and it’s conclusive, there’s no wiggle room out of it. So, now, the third prong is if they do and they will list regulations—let’s take wages. Everybody thinks they have wages. So, we go under 3401, 3402, 4, 5, and 6—these are the Code sections. Well, are there any regulations promulgated under wages? Oh, there are. 1.1441-2, that’s for non-resident aliens and foreign corporations. 1.1441-3, 4, 5…they’re all for non-resident aliens and foreign corporations but then I could even take—the third prong is… Those people even have to, it is their duty or obligation. Well, you go look because those came out of the 1960 publication so they have no force and effect of law even though they’ve been amended because you can’t amend smoke and make fire.

[Joyce]                            Give that source of definition of wages or how they determine wages.

[Ralph]              Wages is you would go under the Code sections and 3401 and 3402 and by the way the 3401 is the one that the gentleman down in Texas about the independent thing, there’s a footnote in it and that’s where that thing that he was concerned about sits. And the 3401, it is sitting behind the Table of Contents and they made regulations but they’re 1.1 is individual income tax, 1441, 442-3, all those are only for non-resident aliens and foreign corporations. There is no part 1 regulation for wages for you and me and the fence post. And you take that one step farther, the third prong, we’ll say, well, I wonder if the non-resident aliens and foreign corporations that those are substantive regs. Do they have the force and effect of law? No. Because they were republished in 1960 and they’ve been amending them but then you can go into the amendments that they’ve done and the IRS admits, ‘we ain’t doing that APA but you guys ain’t smart enough to figure out what we ain’t doing.’

Probably in about two weeks probably for $250 donation I am going to provide the brief and all the documents to anyone like to show people this is what’s really going on. It’s all fact. Everything I’m talking about, today, is all fact, all backed up, not something that I’m making up. I’ve got the documents just like you had and here it is. They say they’re doing it. I believe them.

[Joyce]                            You believe whom.

[Ralph]              These documents, if Congress says this is the gospel according to Congress I got to believe them. The Congress said, ‘we are creating the 4^th branch, it’s a new Bill of Rights. They said that no law that we pass touches the citizen until regulations are promulgated. Yeah, I got to believe them. That’s in the Congressional Record. And as to court cases what’s amazing because I follow a lot of criminal cases and once you see what’s going on you feel sorry for all these people, but they don’t know and they won’t even look. They get in trouble and they get panicky and then they grab for the moon and there is nothing there because you’re not going to reach the moon from here, folks. And so I want to get this information out to show how it really does work and this is all and pictures was a good thing, I got to put a one-line together so that people can visually see it. And once you see it then we can kill these agencies and get our Republic back. We don’t know how to kill them.

[Joyce]                            And I think you’re right. When we can see the Code of Federal Regulations or the regulations that you’re talking about, when we see this all in front of us and follow this though it’ll be a lot easier and, definitely, we will have you back on when you get this together. And, listeners, a lot of people say, ‘Oh, I don’t want to pay for stuff,’ well then, I would suggest that you go do the twenty years of legal research yourself because that’s what it takes. You had essentially a legal library in your office, I remember that in Anchorage, didn’t you, Ralph.

[Ralph]              Yeah, I’ve have probably about $60,000 of old books and I have some books that are extremely rare that I use. I have the 1940 Code Books, the 1946 Code Books. I’ve got missing 13^th Amendment books out of like Virginia that I gave $1000 for two books, 1819. I’ve got Giles Jacob’s law dictionary, 1791. I gave $1000 for that because I have been looking for the truth and the thing is it’s really hard to discern the deception until you find out what you don’t have. They’re not teaching us.

[Joyce]                            That’s right, they’re not teaching you. You’re not going to find it out from and I just want you all to know that Ralph has done here is putting hours and hours—there’s no way anyone can run a business. He lost everything. I saw his business at one time. I visited his business and he’s lost everything and most people do when they become so passioned about what they believe in they just want to do nothing but try and search out the truth. It becomes like—I don’t know, it becomes an addiction of wanting to know the truth because we’ve lied to so much. Well, let’s go ahead and I’m hoping that you’ll have this done and soon so that we can introduce the documents and all the information to our listeners for them to be able to access it but let’s go forward from here.

[Ralph]              Ok. Well, let’s go back. The first thing is to get these agencies into the Federal Register—that’s where they live. That’s by act of Congress to that’s the first thing we have to accomplish. The second thing is when we get them into the Federal Register where they’re supposed to promulgate regulations where do I go find it? That’s the second thing, where do I find it? Well, in the law libraries—oh, I can get it off of West Law but you really have to get to the law libraries because there’s more information than West Law gives you or Lexus. Behind the Table of Contents, these agencies say, ‘ok, Congress told us to do regulations under Code sections. So you go behind the Table of Contents in these books in the front of them and the agency is mandated to tell you whether we promulgated any regulations or not. Ok—so that’s the second thing because you have to be able to prove this conclusively. It can’t be just based on some judge’s decision. So, number one, I found where Congress says go do regulations in the Federal Register, that’s prong one. Prong 2, I go behind the Table of Contents, that by the way, is 1 CFR 2143, that’s the Federal Register Administrative Committee. And that’s a direct delegation of power so that regulation stands. So, now I can identify if they’ve actually promulgated any regulations as mandated by Congress and I find some. So, the third prong is I go test 553 (b), (c) and (e) which is the same equivalent to Congress voting and the President signing. So I say, ‘ok, there was a procedure for you to make law if you want to call it that, a substantive regulation is what it is. Did you do it or not? And the IRS said, ‘no, we ain’t doing that stinking APA because you guys haven’t been smart enough to figure it out yet.’ Isn’t that astounding. How they protect themselves in the IRS is the worst because Congress…oh, by the way, you get a lien, we’re trying to take your property and people file an injunction. We want to stop you. Well, number one, we don’t know how to plead it. But Congress passed the anti-injunction act and said, ‘oh, by the way, unless you can conclusively prove that you’re going to win we won’t allow you to file an injunction to stop the IRS. Just go pay up and then see if you can get your money back.’ Clearly, that sounds like justice, doesn’t it, in a Constitutional Republic? We’ll just move you out of your house and, oh, by the way, down the road if you could ever figure this out you might get it back.’ You know how often that’s going to happen—right? It ain’t going to happen. So that’s one of the first things that they did. Then what they do is if you get them really irate at you like…of DOJ in Anchorage and Bradley they’re openly trying to indict me because they want to shut me up. I said, ‘well, great, go for it, give it your best shot because if you think I’m going to out on my knees, I’m not.

[Joyce]                            You’ve actually talked with them or you just have gotten word that they’re trying to indict you.

[Ralph]              I’ve been in there and I said, ‘how’s my indictment coming?’ He said, ‘just be patient, we’re still working on it.’ They want me to die. I’ve made so many enemies…the cops and the legislators and the federal judges. Federal judges when they walk in I stand and I put my back to them and walk across the seat because I have no respect for them. And that’s the worst thing you could do is put your back to somebody and the marshals just go right through the ceiling—what are they going to do?

[Joyce]                            Wow, I mean, nothing like standing on Superman’s cape, is there?

[Ralph]              I’m not going to pay homage to somebody that I know that is the state courts—I don’t stand because I don’t have any respect for these folks.

[Joyce]                            Especially when you’ve seen the pain, the anguish, that people have gone through in their lives of having their farms ripped out from underneath them, their property, their wages taken. They have to live on cat food. I’ve heard of those stories. It’s incredible.

[Ralph]              Well then what they do if you really make them mad they’ll take these notices of federal tax lien, which they’re all bogus because one of the most killer ones is 26 USC 6203, that is a killer, it’s assessment. The IRS can only tax by two means, tax by a tax stamp or by assessment. Would you like to guess how many regulations have been promulgated for individual income tax under 6203?

[Joyce]                            Ok, explain tax stamp and assessment.

[Ralph]              Ok, if you have people that operate by tax stamps like liquor and things like that they can use that as a means to implement the internal revenue laws for taxation. Well, obviously our payroll checks and all that is not by tax stamp—it is by assessment. They’re supposed to assess a value and it’s mandatory in 6203. It is mandatory because they make up these bogus notices of federal tax lien and they say in there, ‘oh yeah, we did an assessment on such-and-such a date.’ Really? Well, Congress mandated you to put regulations in the Federal Register. So, I get out the copy of my thirteen volumes of books that I got at the law library and I go down there and I look through them all, behind the Table of Contents. I don’t even find one regulation under 6203. Really? Well, you guys didn’t do what Congress said to do. So, how could you have an assessment—here’s the illusion. What they do, because we don’t how their system works. They go, take us to court and do a reduce to judgment. Hi, what you got? I want your farm, I want your house, I want all your farm implements, I want all your toys. What do they rely upon? This is cute.

[Joyce]                            Is the IRS as we’ve been told an offshore entity? Do you know about that?

[Ralph]              I’ve actually been to the building down there on Puerto Rico. Technically, I guess it’s supposed to live down there but that’s not the way to beat it. Technically, I cannot prove exactly where does this fiction at law live.

[Joyce]                            Ok, so you cannot prove where the fiction at law lives?

[Ralph]              I know it’s part of some trusts and stuff at Puerto Rico. I’ve actually been in that building. I actually got ran out of that building.

[Joyce]                            If they’re going to run anybody out it would be you. You’d probably be in their e-mail before long. Ok, let’s go back to, then, what do they rely on to take all this property away?

[Ralph]              What they’re going to rely on—we’re going to borrow a computer that Joyce is going to provide to the IRS. Joyce is going to print out something that any—we have no idea who it is—types in. Maybe you typed it in. You’re going to type it in and the IRS comes over and grabs this printout and it’s on a form 4340 and somebody certifies that it is a transcript of this thing that came out of the computer. And we’re going to, also, on this, we won’t list any code sections, no regulations. Joyce just typed it in and said, ‘oh, there’s been an assessment of $40,000 here on such-and-such a date and there’s been a levy on another such-and-such a date and that’s under RAC006. So, all we’re certifying is that Joyce’s computer, somebody put something in and it was printed out and somebody said, ‘yep, got it out of that computer.’ That’s it and it creates a presumption and the courts go along with them because we do not know how to attack the fact that guess what, this is a fraudulent document of—makes RICO—the Mafia look like they’re little—they haven’t gotten started. There must be an assessment regulation mandated by Congress. It doesn’t even exist. No regulation for Part 1 exists—none. So, how did this computer out of nowhere? Joyce just sits there and types it up and sends it over and she gets the IRS person and they sign it and say, ‘well, I guess we’re going to take your farm based on what Joyce typed up.’

[Joyce]                            Ok, so you say it’s 4340 that they use and it’s RAC006, what does RAC stand for?

[Ralph]              That is what they put on this 4340. It’s above this, they will put that on the assessment date and they just call it a 23C which a lot of people try to get as a document of the assessment and you’re not ever going to see that and below that they do RAC006 and it’s just on the right-hand column of this printout that Joyce was typing up. It said, ‘by golly, we need some more property here, so we’ll just get around and type all this up and this IRS person, he doesn’t have any first-hand knowledge. Yep, we got it out of Joyce’s computer; let’s go take that farm.’ That’s the way they do it. Can you believe that?

[Joyce]                            No, I’m shocked. I am absolutely shocked but so they just do whatever is on the computer. That’s why it’s so important that they come in and take the computers first thing.

[Ralph]              No, what they do is—you misunderstood—what you’re fighting in court, the IRS comes up with a computer printout from—you have no idea who typed it in or anything. They just get it out of the computer printout and somebody says, ‘yep, I got a computer printout here and it’s got Joyce Riley’s name on it. Let’s see here, there was an assessment but we’re not going to tell you that there’s code or regulation. We just make these numbers up. It came out of some computer somewhere. How do you fight something that somebody typed in out a computer? You don’t even know who that person is. All they’re certifying is, yes, that’s the transcript that came out of Joyce’s computer and that’s how people are getting licked and we lose farms and houses…  Can you believe that?

[Joyce]                            No, I can’t, I can’t…

[Ralph]              Every day it’s going on because people do not understand that you cannot lick that, you can’t beat them. How do I confirm or not confirm what Joyce typed into her computer and printed out? I have to way to beat it, do I?

[Joyce]                            That’s right.

[Ralph]              You just say…$100,000, well that’s nice. Where you going to get it?

[Joyce]                            Ok, so they present you with a form 4340; it says you owe such-and-such to the IRS and that’s it. You owe that.

[Ralph]              And then they take that into the court and they play little silly games in there for a while, then all of a sudden the judge says a summary judgment, he says, ‘yep, you owe.’ Then they come and take your farm. That’s the way they’re doing it.

[Joyce]                            Ralph, we’re now at getting our property taken away. Somebody has a lien on their property, they come, they take it away, do they have any recourse?

[Ralph]              That’s a Notice of Federal Tax Lien. Yes, it’s just you get educated and to go into these and one of the things that I’ve been doing is filing a mandamus asking for nothing, no money, no anything, just tell me what you’re operating on over there, folks, because it’s all smoke. And there are two of those mandamuses right now that are in the discovery stage. Initially they were dismissing them right out of…and I think we’ve got that problem solved now and I’ve got to re-write the mandamus again with this latest information because to state it unequivocally the IRS is out of business. It’s a matter of us getting the knowledge to go out and take the wisdom and slay the agency—all of them. One of the most astounding that’s going on today is called the Real ID Act. Everybody thinks that we’re bound by the Real ID Act. Not so. This is another one of their little tricks. It’s not a trick, it’s a crime that Congress does. They pass the Real ID Act and what they said is, ‘oh, by the way, you know that legislative part of that administrative legislative part in Chapter Five, that 5 USC—well, actually, 552(a)1 where you got to put substantive regs in the Federal Register in 553, that’s the administrative legislative procedure to have application create a duty and obligation.  Oh, by the way, don’t do that. We got to put it in the act, we are going to tell the agency, ‘you go put comments in there—the people can comment—but there’s no force and effect of law. They leave out the APA. So, it would be the same thing as Congress saying, ‘ok, we propose a bill on the floor but you don’t have to vote on it. The president doesn’t have to sign it. Really? That’s what…so they’ve done the Real ID Act. The Federal Register—if you do not see in the Federal Register the 5USC—usually what they say is, ‘we are not doing 553 (b) which is the notice and comments…we’re not doing it. If it’s not there that means you’re being—there’s an illusion going on for benefits, social security and all that, they don’t do it because it’s a benefit—they can’t—they can’t bind us to benefits.

[Joyce]                            Ok, they cannot do—they will not do 5 USC, Section 553 (b) (c) (d), however if you lose one receipt from your tax proof then you’re in trouble, but they don’t have to do what they’re supposed to do.

[Ralph]              The thing is we don’t know how to attack and cite the health care act. All of those regulations, the health care, both of those health care, the Senate and the House, neither one has any application to you or me until the regulations are promulgated. And because it’s a benefit they mention 553 in the one from the House of Representatives, but they don’t say how they’re doing it just because in 553 it has a plus side and a negative. The plus side is you have to do the administrative legislative process 553 (b) (c) and (d). In 553 (a) (2) it says, oh, by the way, if it’s a benefit and it’s all this all you got to say is we ain’t doing it. We’re not doing it. So, this was the scam that the health care act has absolutely no application to you or me or the fence post—nothing—until regulations—that’s why it says over two hundred times in both of them, ‘regulations got to be promulgated.’

[Joyce]                            Well, so where does this bring us? Now, we’re at 39 minutes after the hour. We’ve been talking about this for an hour and a half, where does this bring us, Ralph, what do we do next and we got April 15^th coming up, people are not educated on this to be able to handle themselves. What do we do?

[Ralph]              Well, get educated. That’s what I’m trying to do is to give the people the overview. I’ve got thousands of hours of sifting through all kinds of rabbit holes and nonsense. That’s why I got out of all the patriot stuff to get it down to something that I could conclusively prove by acts of congress. Congress said it, and by the way, because the Federal Register has the same force and effect of law as the Statutes at Large, Congress said, ‘oh, by the way, the courts are mandated to take judicial notice of the Federal Register,’ that’s in 44 USC 1507. They’re telling us because people don’t know what that means, the statutes, the courts have to take judicial notice, that goes without saying. But they actually passed 44 USC, Section 1507, said, oh by the way, these agencies that publish in there, in the Federal Register, that Federal Register has the force and effect of law because it’s the same as a statute. If you know how to test the regulation, you must test it. It’s like every bill sitting up there in Congress, they don’t all get passed. No…

[Joyce]                            Has anyone tested this?

[Ralph]              Yeah, I’ve got about eighteen cases I’ve got my fingers in, in one way or another with things along this line. And what we’ve got them now is they’re folded up and what they’re doing is they’re scratching somewhere. They don’t know what to do—they’ve been caught.

[Joyce]                            You mean the IRS has been caught?

[Ralph]              Yes. And I’m going to after child custody because that’s one of the most evilest kidnapping schemes going on. People do not know that Congress mandated for child custody that there is a contract between the court system and the child custody for money. It’s called a cooperative agreement. God, people do not know that they have bounties on children. The healthy ones, Congress pays $4000 a head. For the crippled ones they get $2000 a head, that’s an act of Congress.

[Joyce]                            Oh, my goodness.

[Ralph]              That’s black and white. And, oh, by the way, they passed regulations—I got this out of Florida—one out of every twenty we can abuse. We actually abuse them and do whatever we want with them. And that’s an acceptable—of course, you got to catch us, because people don’t know how to catch them. People go in there with these child custody—people don’t know you go to the hospital, the hospital is taking anybody and all those children, young children, that come in and they hand those records over to the child custody folks and then they pick and choose because they have quotas. If they don’t meet their quotas initially they’ll lose up to ten percent of their funding. It’s all about the money.

[Joyce]                            Amazing. One man e-mailed me and he said, ‘wouldn’t it just be easier to get the pitchforks and go to the street? That’s kind of the guy response when people hear all of this because this is a lot of work to have to do. And I want to thank John who sent the archives, the Federal Register archives, so we’re going to be linking that at the Power Hour and also on the e-mail blast so people can actually see that. This is not something that a person just says, ‘no, I just found out that I don’t owe,’ because that’s not exactly the way it is, is it, Ralph?

[Ralph]              Well, we don’t, but it’s like everybody knows. Well, how do you know? You got to prove it because I’m telling you what, the courts are corrupted. The Supreme Court closed its doors in 1988 and they no longer declare the law. People go up on a writ of certiorari and every Friday those justices get together in forum in their little black robes, they say, ‘well, I don’t know, what do you think about Riley’s suit? No, I don’t think so, we’re not going to do it.’ And the lawyers are pulling a scam on us because if they caught in a case cite they say, ‘oh, we tried to go to the Supreme Court, and they said, ‘writ of certiorari denied,’ and the courts turn around and say, ‘oh, just because they denied it that doesn’t mean it’s the law. We just don’t want to talk about it.’’  Is that astounding?

[Joyce]                            It is.

[Ralph]              And then, in 1946 they came out with the Federal Criminal Rules of Procedure and in Rule 7 they said, ‘oh, by the way, we no longer have to inform the person of the statute or the regulation that he violated.’

[Joyce]                            That seems unconscionable. That’s seems totally not even possible, Ralph.

[Ralph]              Well, that’s why they’re going in—people get all these IRS, they always say the jury instructions, oh, there’s got to be a known legal duty. Nobody ever asked where’s the known legal duty because everybody says, ‘where’s the law?’ Well, in reality there isn’t. It’s never talked about and because all the petit jury members say, ‘well, we all know that he’s got to pay his taxes—we just know that because we’ve been brainwashed.’

[Joyce]                            And there’s more and more people that are conscientious objectors to taxes now, especially a lot of people in the anti-war movement that are doing that. I think the number of people that are not paying for whatever reason, whatever they believe, maybe that they believe that the money should go to us and not to offshore banks in the form of TARPS, etc. But I think there are a lot of people that are not paying for a lot of conscientious reasons. Have you heard of that?

[Ralph]              Oh, yeah. But do we live in a country, Joyce, that they kill our military and torture them and they knowingly use this depleted uranium and this other stuff so that they end up with creating a waste land in Iraq and Afghanistan and they’re bringing it back here with all these deformed babies, I mean, who would do this? And now we are stealing with no law behind it, the IRS comes out and takes you to jail, pushes people to commit suicide like this guy did, because he didn’t understand it. How would he understand it? People like Sherri Peale Jackson that’s in jail because she didn’t understand it. The Browns, they didn’t understand it. And they take their property and put them in jail because we don’t know. This is the country that we live in and then to add insult to injury we have child custody folks, they are involved in and supplying pedophiles, they are involved in kidnapping and in slavery. They are stealing children, no different than bringing them from Africa, and reallocating them out and selling them for money and people don’t even know because there are contracts behind the scenes. The judge is there to make money, the attorney, he’s signed up for the money, all of the psychiatrists are all signed up, the hospital gets a kickback, everybody’s happy to sell somebody else’s child.

[Joyce]                            Well, let me ask you then, how do you think that you’re going to be able to bring about change if you say that the court system is corrupt but we must take this through the court system?

[Ralph]              The same way as the land in the land of Oz. We’re going to pull the curtain back off the wizard and we’re going to say, ‘oh boy, look what’s there,’ because we have known the truth. Truth can slay these things. But we have to get out of our rut, check out the documents, engage our brain and say, ‘hey, for liberty I am going to get my Republic back—I want to be free.’

[Joyce]                            And we need 100,000 people to be doing this and to be finding out. Now, where do they start, seriously, where do they start because I know you said that you got material coming out, but where does somebody start right now, this minute, if they say, ‘oh,….

[Ralph]              I would recommend going to Republic Broadcasting and listening to my archives and start downloading them—it’s like $15 a year or something—it’s nothing—and listen because I go over the document, I have a special list which you can join for $120 dollar donation a year and I send out e-mails, the special list, with documents because that’s one of the things that just irritated me to no end, I see all these claims and I try to check some of it out and I can’t find it. I want to see something—I want to believe it—just like what you did when you started with the Gulf War stuff. I want to see some paper, folks. I don’t want your opinion. I want to see the documents so I have a fact, a provable fact that I could stand on that’s truth.

[Joyce]                            Well, I cannot thank you enough for what you are doing and continuing to do and go to www.jusbelli.com and…

[Ralph]              Well, there’s something else, Joyce, if I could interrupt here. If they will send me an e-mail or I can send it over and you can post it, it doesn’t make any difference, but if they’ll send an e-mail to ralph@jusbelli.com I will send you the excerpt of the Administrative Procedure Act that says there’s a headless fourth branch of government. We are creating a fourth branch, we’re creating a new Bill of Rights, all these things are in black and white and there’s the evidence of Congressional intent.

[Joyce]                            Ok, and then where do they sign up for that special list so that they can get all your…

[Ralph]              They have to send me an e-mail and then I only operate with postal money orders because I have no bank account, no credit cards, no anything. I’m as far out of the system as I could get. And just send me an e-mail and say you want to do it and send a postal money order and I’ll send you the address and I will immediately put you in and then I prefer you get Skype because I will send you these very large files and can read it yourself.

[Joyce]                            Ok, and you also said that you want Alaska spelled out and what is the reason for that?

[Ralph]              Because Alaska and Arkansas get mixed up every once in a while.

[Joyce]                            Oh, I thought it had something to do with two-digit code that’s always…

[Ralph]              No, I just prefer—I always put my zip in, in brackets and all those things but I know so much about—I say, I have pounded on so much of this stuff. I could tell you the rules of court or the Supreme law that they overpower statutes—can you believe that?  That’s in Title 28, Section 2072. That’s why you see rules of court used in court decisions. How did a rule of court rise to trump, if it’s in conflict with a statute? That’s unbelievable, isn’t it?

[Joyce]                            That’s right. But my question to you is how have you stayed free all this time because in ’96 when I first started talking to you, you had fear of going to jail. You were not using a license plate at the time.

[Ralph]              Oh, God, I got 84 traffic citations in two years and I probably got set up by a member and I took on the Chicaloon[sp?] driver’s license issue for the natives over here and I learned a good hard lesson.  I….the driver’s license, they gave me six months in jail, a $5,000 fine and five year probation. They don’t even do this for people with DWIs.

[Joyce]                            Did you go to jail?

[Ralph]              Oh, yeah, I…

[Joyce]                            I didn’t know that.

Can you give some inspiration to some of the people that perhaps have lost faith that believe it’s all over, that we’re not going to be able to have a chance? Give us some inspiration to go out of this three-minute segment on, Ralph.

[Ralph]              Well, I’ll tell you what, we’re going to take the knowledge and we’re going to kill the IRS agencies and these other ones because we are going to expose them and I am going to show you how to do it. I’m going to give the evidence behind it and draw one line up and say, ‘tell me it’s not so.’ And like I say, I’m involved in probably about 18 cases, I think, right now, to do with traffic and commerce, IRS, you just name it, because this has application to all these issues and we have actually, got a couple of books and records that have just flat out stopped because these IRS agents have no authority. If you know the Federal Register where to go back that there’s no delegation of authority to the IRS people to issue these 2039 summonses. It’s all knowledge and I can tell you unequivocally if you are really, really serious you need to get access to West Law or Lexis and especially the Federal Register documents because there is no way. You can go to the law library and do this with microfiche. It’s just not going to happen. I have at my fingertips all these things that I could just immediately, all case law, everything.

[Joyce]                            Now, you are not a lawyer and you’re not practicing law, right now.

[Ralph]              I am not an attorney. I’m not a counselor at law and I am not giving legal advice. I am passing out knowledge and if you want to check it out, fine, and  they say I’m a little crass but I’ve got the attitude if you’re not interested, well, good luck and don’t ever bother me again because I’m not interested.

[Joyce]                            And you want serious students on this.

[Ralph]              I want people that want to learn and like I say, you listen to my show, you get on my special list, I’ll give you the documents. I take calls, I try to return all calls as best I can, all the e-mails, and I will look up things for you off the special list. We need people with knowledge.

[Joyce]                            I don’t how you do it. Ladies and Gentlemen, don’t waste his time, though, he’s got a very limited amount of time but he wants to get this DVD out very soon and these documents out. Ralph Winterowd, we salute you, we thank you so much for joining us at the Power Hour today, it’s been awesome.

[Ralph]              Well, thank you for having me on and hopefully we’ve enlightened some people out there and sparked a few people to get involved in liberty. We can beat these guys.

[Joyce]                            And we will do it again, soon, and listeners remember you can be more that you are, you can do more than you are doing and the truth will win out. Remember, the only winning move is not to play the game. Thank you so much for joining us today. You all have a blessed day, God bless you all, we’ll see you tomorrow.